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ForGuppies
September 11th-2008, 01:53 AM
I have created a new strain from a wild female Guppy with an apparently autosomal gene/s for blue metallic upper body (possible Stoerzbach) and a Neon Red male Guppy.

The outcome so far is about 50% HB Red Delta (the neon phenotype got lost in the process and was replaced by a HB phenotype) and metallic blue body and light orangy red delta tail. The latter is my goal, although I was hoping for a pink tail. But for now, my "problem" is how to increase the size/length of the tail. Even though their tail is perfectly triangular, it is small for a delta.

So, I was wondering how to increase the size while at the same time work on purifying this new strain.

By the way, I'm looking for names for it. If anyone is interested in helping me name this new strain, please PM or post it. I would be happy to get suggestions. If it happens to be Stoerzbach metal, I would like to name it Stoerzbach Metal--------- .

lLz
September 11th-2008, 02:10 AM
picture?

MADMIKE
September 11th-2008, 02:30 AM
One of the most popular naming system is to join the color, patterns and shape of guppy into a complete name.

ForGuppies
September 11th-2008, 02:32 AM
These guys were in my 55 gallon tank that burst this last week. I had them in two plastic containers and just today I finished transfering the last one into a new tank.

As you can see, they have gone through a lot. All of the Guppies I transfered yesterday started to eat normal today. Most of the ones I transfered today are eating normal but a few females and few fry don't look very good. They are too stressed out.

For that reason, I rather wait a couple of days before I place some of my best males into a small container and photograph them.

But if you want to have an idea, I can post pictures of previous generations that I do not longer have. Just keep in mind that there are visible improvements in each new generation. So the males of previous generation do not look as "defined' as the newer ones.

ForGuppies
September 11th-2008, 02:38 AM
Color of the body is metallic green/blue, sometimes green and sometimes blue. That's why it was suggested to me that it was Stoerzbach.
It has no pattern except a red streak on the upper part of the body (behind the eyes). Is that the bandit marking? I have to check. I read about that.

And Delta tail.

What do you mean by shape? Tail shape?

ForGuppies
September 11th-2008, 02:48 AM
Hopefully, you can see this picture of one young male from my F5 at 1 1/2 month old. I still have him, and F6 too. Soon I will have F7 as well.

http://guppydesigner.com/images/fbfiles/images/Possible_Stoerzbach_gene.jpg

ForGuppies
September 11th-2008, 02:50 AM
The red spots close to the caudal were removed from the next generation.

ForGuppies
September 11th-2008, 04:39 AM
I read this discussion in another forum (link below):

----------------

LUKE: "The Flamenco dancers and crosses have nice color but I think the finnage is still in need of development. It cannot decide if it will be a short roundtail or small delta."

RAMONA: "Hi Luke,
that right because they have no real shorttail genes.
The Deltatail is just restrained in growing.
I assume it is because of the stoerzbach metal gene (combination).
Same phenomen like at the pink moscows you know?"

Stręde: "Hey
I think Ramona is right, but if its the stoerzbach metal gene that prevent delta tail, what kind of outcrossing would you sugest?"

http://www.world-guppy.de/forum/index.php?mode=viewthread&forum_id=5&thread=1
----------

So my question is: does the Stoerbach metal gene shorten delta tails, in other words, is it impossible to get large delta tails if the Guppy has that gene?

If so, that would, first, sort of confirm that I have Stoerzbach Guppies, and second, it is not worth the trouble trying to increase the tail size.

Any thoughts?

ForGuppies
September 12th-2008, 03:09 PM
I took about 200 photos and only got 2 or 4 decent pictures which I will post as soon as they download. In the few pictures where I was able to capture the metallic body color, sometimes green and sometimes light blue, you can see (or at least partially see) the color which only shows at certain angles and certain ammount of light. If there is too much light, the color don't show. If it is too dark, the color don't show either. So, it will only show in medium light, where the light reflects directly on the body. It is a very light coat of irridiscent color cells. That I can say after trying for a looooong to capture it on film.

I also realized that at certain angles and when you are very close the fish, the metallic color looks silvery. I am not sure if that makes sense. If it doesn't make sense just ignore. It might have just been me or my eyes playing tricks on me. I just thought I saw it looking silver platinum (which come from the word "silver" in Latin, also "plata"= "silver" in Spanish). Well I hope I was also able to capture that on film.

With regards to the metallic gene I thought it was Stoerzbach, I was told that the gene is extremely rare and most likely is not the gene my Guppies carry. So, what is the gene? I am still looking. Apparently, the Stoerzbach gene negatively affects the shape and size of the tail. Since mine has a nice, thiugh small, delta tail and I am probably not working with that gene. However, the similarities in terms of color shade, intensity and ammount of color cells in my new Guppy strain and that of Stoerzbach is too close for me to totally discard it as a possibility. I still need to breed my males and my females to an IFGA strain with non-reflecting cells to possibly to discard or partially confirm the gene. I also want to know if the gene is autosomal, X-linked, Y-linked and/or if it crosses over. It is a long tedious, IMO, process. I want to just confirm it or discard it ASAP. I can't wait for that, but I don't have yet an IFGA strain I can use for this "experiment".

ForGuppies
September 12th-2008, 08:07 PM
Like I said, I took more than 100 picutres to get a few ok ones.

The first few pictures capture the color best. But since the color appears green or blue and even silvery sometimes, it is better to see the color variation.
The pictures are of different males at different stages in development. The females are blue, interestingly. Both males and females start out light blue. The females remain light blue with some having a small hint of red on the upper part of the caudal. The males start getting the redv spot and the orangy red tail gradually. Firt, the upper caudal turns redding and then the rest does. So you can see that some males have some blue at the base ofb the causdal or in the tail. Those haven't finished coloring yet. They will be solid red. The same applies to those with black spots on the tail. That gradually dissapears too.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q179/forguppies/IMG_7529.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q179/forguppies/IMG_7623.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q179/forguppies/IMG_7687.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q179/forguppies/IMG_7751.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q179/forguppies/IMG_7720.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q179/forguppies/IMG_7752.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q179/forguppies/IMG_7445.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q179/forguppies/IMG_7446.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q179/forguppies/IMG_7589.jpg

ForGuppies
September 12th-2008, 09:54 PM
http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q179/forguppies/IMG_7473.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q179/forguppies/IMG_7623-1.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q179/forguppies/IMG_7554.jpg

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q179/forguppies/IMG_7787.jpg

Charlene
September 13th-2008, 12:11 AM
Very intersting gups!

Did you say that you started with a wild guppy and crossed it with a delta tail?

I like the neon blue in the body and I think the tails look bright red. I guess if you wanted bigger tails you'd have to breed them back to the Delta tails that are HB with the all red tails or an all red delta tail or one of your Japanese Neon blue grass. You have so many strains the possibilities are endless.

As for a name - why not name them after you?

Thanks for posting the photos - I just love seeing what other people are breeeding.

ForGuppies
September 13th-2008, 12:40 AM
Very intersting gups!

Did you say that you started with a wild guppy and crossed it with a delta tail?



Yes. I bought 4 wild Guppies (feeder Guppies sold at .10 cent) with a light blue metallic body that I really liked. I thought the metallic blue would look nice on a fancy Guppy. The males died (I used them for cycling :o ) but the females survived and I put them together with my Neon Red males Guppies. The Neon Blue color of the Neon Red dissapeard after the first generation. Apparently, the gene for this light blue metallic color is reccessive (autosomal, X-linked or crosses over Y to X because the females had the gene). It started appearing later. First, by one male, then by 3 and multiplied by generations.

What I have now is 50-60% of HB Reds (not Neon Blue or Neon Red) that show a tiny bit of this light blue metallic color and this light blue metallic males with orangy red tails.

Honestly, I was hoping to get blue tails, but I did not use males with the Asian Blau gene, maybe one day I will.

I'm investigating the gene that cause the blue color. It is very different to the Neon Blue in intesity, location, color, color reflection and other traits. So far, the closest match is Stoerzbach white metal.


As for a name - why not name them after you?

Thank you for the tip. I'm not sure I dare, but knows, maybe I will. I will let you know! :D

dantheman
September 15th-2008, 07:17 PM
This is just a little info I could be totaly wrong but buy a blue tail from the fish store and mix that with the 2nd best male/female and you may have a blue tail i dont know.

As for a name this may sound weird but Im planning on naming one of my strains with an alcoholic drink sounds like a bright color or something but thats just me.

ForGuppies
September 16th-2008, 04:43 AM
As for a name this may sound weird but Im planning on naming one of my strains with an alcoholic drink sounds like a bright color or something but thats just me.

:D

After a lot of researching and sending my Guppy photos to other connoisseurs, it appears that the head has an Y-linked platinum gene, the peduncle has a X-linked (still) unknown gene that's interacting with the genes for the spots (HB genes). It is likely that HB genes are in the genotype interacting with the X-linked gene for the metallic body color creating a red spot at the top of the peduncle.

All these theories are yet to be proven.

This possible genotype, the wording is mine obviously, was a contribution from Dr. Jose Rene Melendez (I hope I spelled it correctly, sorry if I didn't).

From what I understand, Dr. Melendez studied the interaction between the HB gene and a platinum gene for the same location. He found when the are both present, the end result is a metallic peduncle that has a black spot at the top. It is much better described in his article.:(

Since my Guppies are metallic too and show a spot on the same place -same type of spot- of the peduncle than Dr. Melendez Guppies, it is well possible that the genes of my Guppies are interacting in the same manner (metallic + HB).

I will keep you posted on the developments.